Sharing a strange idea

[Schreck]

hi,

the following post might be difficult to understand,
but I hope, somebody tries it.

I have a problem, because I play something, which I don't understand anymore.
this it the first time, I want to mention.
all I can say, is, that it sounds great.
but I don't know why and that's not good, because it's better to know why,
because you can work better on it by knowing.
sometimes, it sounds wrong and I'am not knowing why too and so it's really hard work,
just to understand through listening without knowing.

explanation.

the basic is hi-hat and bass drum.
one with the hihat, two with bass-drum.
speed is quick.
one two three, one two three, one two three and so on.

now the hands.
it's something like the swiss triplet,
but the right hand doesn't move between Cymbal and snare.
the right hand stays on the cymbal or whereever you want.

so, the hihat is the one - the beginning point.
right hand, left hand and bass is a circle.

now the sticking (snare is right hand, cymbal is left hand)

first stroake snare,
second stroake snare together with the hihat together with the first stroake of the cymbal
second stroake on the cymbal with first stroake on the bass
second stroake on the bass with first stroake on the snare
second stroake on the snare together with ... here we are again.

so, that's my basic. no problem up to here.

now closer to the problem.

play swiss triplet between snare and cymbal but stay with one hand on the cymbal.

now the first variation. still no problem.

triplet feel and the left hand plays instead of two stroakes three.
the right hand plays two.

take this over the triplet feel and you hear the shifting.

we have now

left, left, left together with right, right
left, left, left together with right, right

and so on.

!! now, we play the same left and right. !!

now, the shifting is left and right, because now,
I play instead of the two stroakes of the right hand three stroakes
and the last one somes together again with the first stroke of the left double
and again ...

now we have a real circle.
to me, it was very funny,
that I can play this circle in 4 feel or in 3 feel.
no difference in the sticking. the difference is just in the mind.

the sticking is - and now I have the first problem, because I don't know,
where to begin, the stroake has not really a beginning point.
I start with a swiss triplet, beginning with the left hand.
but I could start at any other place.

*

left - left/right - right (regular triplet)

!!! left - !!! left -
left/right - right - left - left/right - right - right/left -
left - right - right/left - left - left/right

and so on

problem to write it down is the beginning point, because there is not really a beginning.
take this example. the beginning (left - left) is not the exact beginning
in the circle of the stroke. but anyway.

so, and now play the hi-hat and bass drum.

one two three one two three and so on.

play now together with the hands the so-called swiss-triplets,

and now change to the stroake, i posted above *

and now listen to the result.
the result is ridiculous.

there is a shifting, which sounds, but I can't even tell you,
in what kind of repetition, because it's very hard to play.

I can only listen and listen and sometimes in the future,
I will understand.
but it's easier, to know before.

what makes me really wonder, is, if I play the stroake
in triplet feel wihout the bass drum, I have no problem with the repetion and shifting of
the three times by playing this stroake.
but if I play the bass-drum pattern to it,
then it sounds not like a repetition after 3 versions of the stroake.
I wrote it down and had no problem with three.
I can count it out. I have 10 stroakes in one version.
NOW I don't count the overlapping stroakes.
after 30 strokes I am coming to the end and the repetition begins again.
and 30 stroakes divided through 4 is
?hm, ... not even, ?hm ...

so, if I play it in double time I have 60.
60 is o.k. ?hm ... (I'am just thinking). shit. without an result.

the problem is, that I HEAR THREE shiftings in combination with the hi-hat/bass,
but not after palying the stroake three times.
take the pattern hihat - bass - bass.
you can shift this for itself three times.
you can play the hi-hat on the one, or on the two or on the three.
and this is, what I'am hearing - WITHOUT shifting the bass and the hi-hat
and WITHOUT changing the hand stroaks - but not after playing the stroake three times.
I play the combination like an idiot and hear three shiftings without doing anything
different.

I play the same stroake and listen to the hi-hat and bass
and hear THREE shiftings, but I don't even know,
what the repetition number is, because if I want to count the repetition,
I can't listen anymore to the shifting.

so, please tell me someone, what's going on.

And if no one answers, no problem.
I'am at my working place and it's a totally boring day
and I have plenty of time.

thank you for listening.

[trieck]

It's really hard to follow what you're saying. Can you post a sample of you playing this?

[benrand]

What? All I hear is pops and whistles.

[Schreck]

thanks to the guys, who tried to read my post.
Now, I made an Excel file. [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img]
sorry, I can't give you an sound example.
I have only an old tape recorder and really don't know,
how to convert this into an internet file.

hear it is, the explanation file of my posting. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

http://s20.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...D38TJ4ZYP9RGRH

the real beginning is at point K - red colour.
what I can see now, is, that the repetition of the hands
in combination with the feet is after 30 stroakes.
(an overlapping stroake has to count like ONE stroake.)

30 divide through four is uneven.
so, I have to play until 60. 60 is even.
this is like 15 bars in 4.
a clear triplet feel is also impossible,
because the repetition modus of the hands is 10.
but 10, I cannot divide through 3.

so, in combination I get this very strange feeling, like "what the hell is this".
with the feet, I play triplets, with the hands, I play 10.
to play in an 4-bar modus, I have to play 60 stroakes.
to play in a 3-bar modus, I have to play four times the three = 12 stroakes (Hi-hat and Kick)
and 60, I can devide through 12.

but if I play four times the three, the combination is alwaysshifting,
because the repetition modus of the hands is 10.

It's more clear now, but I still don't know, what this shit mean.
all I can say, is, that it SOUNDS NATURELLY great.
it's not a theoretical shit. it's just LOGICAL.
the only thing is, to add left AND right ONE stroake, while playing swiss triplets.


perhaps this is not new - but for me it is. [img]eek.gif[/img]

[Vdrummer]

Wow! I had a hell of a time translating your explanation. Thanks for the Excel file, it made things a lot clearer. I found a small mistake on it though. The first note should RH and LH playing together. Basically, it's a ten note hand pattern played as triplets, over a LRR foot pattern orchestrated on Hi-hat and Bass drum.

I've notated it so everyone here can mess around with the idea.

I'll leave it up for a couple of days. Enjoy all!

http://homepage.mac.com/polyostinato/

[Vdrummer]

I redid it and added the ten note hand pattern so if you downloaded it in the last two minutes, get the new version - it'll help! Have fun.

[trieck]

Vdrummer that just impressed the hell out of me that you were able to understand that enough to write it out. Great job!

[Vdrummer]

You're welcome. Have fun messing with it. I think I'll save a copy for a know-it-all student... ;-)

[Vdrummer]

I thought about it some more, redid the sheet and added a version of the idea that's very similar to Shreck's. The differences are the hand pattern remains the same but starts it a different point of the cycle, and the foot pattern is now a linear foot shuffle RLR RLR, so it could be used the next time you play a shuffle in 5/4. LOL!

[Vdrummer]

If you try playing these layered polyrhythmic ideas, it may help to think 12345 over and over, to focus on the longer more difficult pattern. That worked for me. Sometimes it helps to not think of anything and just passively listen to the cycle. Whatever works....